Grab one for me please.

I'll take a beer with mine...this thread is making me feel dizzy so I might as well be dizzy

Hmmmm... Point taken Brad.
No body of evidence, no crime commited. Right?
I guess I should have save that screeshot when I reached 300.000 d/ls but then again, someone might have jumped in and say I added some extra zeros.
Oh well, I guess I should return all my downloads since I remove all my work?

This is NOT great... It's NOT great when "people are genuinely hurting" and it's not great when these same people try to "genuinely" hurt this website...

There are people who have some hard lives and come to this forum to relax and take a load off and enjoy...

The "community" is ultimately the people posting and responding to said posts and *GURGLE* it HURT REAL people to see it turn into bad voojoo.

We feel extremely GUILTY that our one wall submission got IN...rated 5 was probably WAY too high...yeah...we feel guilty now after seeing so much crap the admins hafta go thru.

Dang...

No body of evidence, no crime commited. Right?

And the show goes on...

e-bros hands Frogboy a cold one and hopes he hasn't lost faith.

May I correct you FB, that there are 1024 kb in one mb. So his download total is 659.83mb. (Minor detail but...) Ok, I will vouch for A_67...I have taken numerous peeks at his skins in the past and can confirm that the total download WAS around 300,000. (I dont remember the exact number but...) And...if you figure that the avg skin is about 250k (Which is probably a very low estimate...) the amount of data that ppl downloaded from his skins/walls was...75000000kb OR 73242mb. (Remember, this is using 250k as an avg skin size...many are over 2000kb so, the real number could be MUCH higher) So, Id say that he has contributed to the community MUCH more than he has taken away.

A67....the reality is that, were a person to reconsider their 'stance' or 'approach', and desire their works to be restored, they can, and along with any existing comments and dl counts, etc....[just ask shmoopy [and others]....life goes on....opinions change, but unlike death and taxes, nothing need really be chiselled in stone....

Ap67, I'm sure you'll be happy on dA. Some of your wallpapers are nearing he 100 download mark I saw.

But seriously, you can't have it both ways. You can make whatever claim you want for yoru contributions. You removed the evidence of that contribution, not us.

Look, Ap, we've been around for a long time. Before WC many of us were around years before then.  People like you and Lady A and such have come and gone the whole time. It's an established pattern.

Do you wonder why so many long timers here dont' take it very seriously? Because it's the same post, different person, different website. These same posts have shown up on Skinz.org, WinCustomize, deviantART, Deskmod, etc. 

And they always end up going the same route. But let me save you some time.

For the next few weeks you'll submit everything you possibly can do site X (where X could be deviantART, Deskmod, or whatever sit eyou choose). YOu'll do your best to promote it. You'll then discover that things aren't quite as happy as you had thought. Downloads aren't nearly as high as you would like. Few comments. A loss of recognition.

At some point, you might complain on a message board about this. At that point, you'll discover that site X's denziens are not any more tolerant of complaints as this site or any other site.

You'll discover that the grass is not so green on the other side of the fence. But at the same time, you'll be too proud to admit you made a mistake and in fact deny such a thing if asked when the time comes.

We've seen this a lot for many years on many sites. It always goes roughly the same way.

I can name two dozen high profile authors who, over the years, have gotten mad at WinCustomize for some reason (subscirptions, commercial software, ratings, flame in comments, lack of promotion, etc.). They proudly announce they're going somewhere else. But discover that they don't get nearly the recognition they thought they'd get. And they fade away.

I'll use one example of this - Carlitus. I use him because he was one author whose contributions were truly significant. I'm not talking a bunch of standard glassy swirl wallpaper stuff (no offense). But icons, themes, and other significant artwork that was used by hundreds  of thousands of real people.

An artist who really made a big difference.  He left because he disagrees with the site having a download limit for non-subscribers. I don't think he recognizes the costs in running a site of this magnitude but it was his right. And with him went literally thousands of icons and themes and objects. Irreplaceable stuff. And there was nothing we could do to placate him.

And so throughout the winter he submitted work to dA. But submitting work is tedious. Especially most of it gets relatively few downloads. He had individual things here that over a 100,000 downloads. It's hard to go from that to a fraction of that.

And so one of the most active contributors of 2002 has not submitted anything to a major skin site since last Winter (that I can find anyway and I do look).

And so I ask you, in the end, who suffers? WinCustomize? Sure, to some extent but it doesn't affect traffic because people don't know what they're missing. Once a website reaches critical mass, individual content doesn't have that kind of effect.

The ones who suffer are the community.

And so the same pattern plays out year after year. Your post could have appeared on dA's message boards. There have been plenty of them over the years just like yours saying that they're going to go to WinCustomize or Skinbase or Deskmod. Same reasons.

But at the end of the day, you have to decide why you even make this stuff.

I'm not afraid to say that I like to share my stuff but I even more like to see lots of people using it. Lots of people commenting on it. And that's what WinCustomize has going for it. That's because WC treats artists extremely well. It may not be some imagined ideal, but in the real world of intellectual property handling and distribution, WC is pretty good at it. And that's why it's the #1 skinning site by a mile.

And believe me, WC did everything it coudl to try not to be #1. It limited the # of sections to being a select few. It moderates wallpapers. It has actively promoted other websites. When I was on TechTV, it wasn't WinCustomize I mentioend first as a place to go, it was dA and Deskmod. 

To make a long story short, you may find that the grass isn't as green on the other side as you thought.

e-bros....I'm the Aussie here, ergo, I'm the 'cold one' drinker....nudge, nudge....

!

e-bros hand Jafo a nice cold brewsky in a frosty chilled glass. chug a lug

Sugaree grabs that frosty brew, drinks it & hands Paul the Mug.... Can you get me another, Please?

EventHorizon is too young to drink...*Grabs some fizzy grape juice* Hey, Jafo, can I have a sip?

I need to clarify something here:

One and most importantly NO I DO NOT CONSIDER THE ADMINS AND WC MY SLAVES/WAITERS and whatever other terms and references were made. If my comment eluded to that, then that IS MY ERROR, and for that I WILL apologize. That isn't the point I was trying to get across. I then clearly made a big fubar with the vehicle I used to try and make a point.


Two, IN NO WAY do I think I am harming WC by pulling my designs. My designs not being here mean nothing, I am not an egotistical person.Me not being here means NOTHING, I am not that delusional. Those that KNOW me know that I am not like that AT ALL! Do I think I have potential, HELL YEAH I DO! I KNOW I DO! But there are far better than me out there, and I do my best to get better each time I make something new. So this theory that we think we're hurting WC for pulling our stuff is way way off.

Someone made a psychological evalution if you will that those of us that are ranting or doing the drama thing as most prefer to call it, are really doing it because we really didn't 'want' to leave. Can't say that is totally proposterous. My guess is that originally most that leave are very apprehensive and would rather not. I being one of those. I didn't want to leave originally, but I could in no way have an ounce of dignity if I hadn't. All anyone EVER wanted was to be involved in a skinning community that they could contribute to, grow with the site, and 'contribute' the heck to! But as it's been noted, wall designers a dime a dozen (Or whatever the penny statement was) Frogboy was clear that he could careless about it either. How are we to read such statements and not feel the way that we have and not get FLAMED??? All anyone wanted was to make their little creations, 'contribute' all that we had, feel as though we were needed just as much as WC was needed. But that isn't how MANY have felt. I KNOW I'm not alone on that. Hell I've gotten emails this very day/night about it.

I have seen the statements on the threads over my time here, where someone new to it all asks a goofy question or the like, and one person makes a CRUEL and smartass comment, then the bandwagon begins and the thread has now turned into a big pick on the goof thread. IT IS WRONG! I have witnessed in threads someone trying to get a point across about something that doesn't feel or seem right/fair or whatever and get hammered. IT IS WRONG. So my statement about 'service' in a previous post was merely that, WC is a skinning community that in a sense links to Stardock. MANY of us came here first looking for WALLS, stumbled across so much more, then checked out Stardock, then downloaded the trial, then said, "K...I'll buy". I know others have as well. So if this was a nice, non condescending place, that treated people as though they are wanted and needed...then imagine how much MORE money's would be spent on products and subscriptions. That was MY POINT on the 'service' thing that I obviously fumbled and it went a whole wrong path. Again I can and have no qualms with apologizing for a vehicle I use to get to my point, but I do not apologize for saying that Frogboy wants to make his money--software to sell, and buy a subscription or contribution in return for the space, so why not make those people feel around here as they freakin' mean something. I will NEVER apologize for that. And everyone would have won then.

Yes, skinners/artists whatever we want to call it, want their stuff up...tell me what is wrong with them wanting to be treated as they are a valued part of a community. In return, the site prospers, as there are happy freakin' people feeling as they are in one damn cool place. They want to contribute more, get their subscriptions, buy their products! If there is an air about an enviroment that makes it's contributors feel as though they should just be grateful they have a place for their stuff, and that's good enough, you can ONLY FIND ANIMOSITY! YOu can't possibly nail me to a wall when most artists/skinners that leave here, or take a break and go to another site so they can figure out where they want be, have that turmoil for the same reasons, over and over again. It's never new, most have the same problem. So why is it so damn hard to say, wait a minute, ok there's a pattern here. Instead, it's, "Oh its the same thing again, another artist is gettin' to big for the britches. Let the dimwit go who cares! Their clueless dramatic fools, that know nothing!" This 'wall designer' is NOT too big for her britches, in the LEAST!

What you need to do is get rid of this damned message forum!!!! This is where the main problem begins. I know I was a great deal happier before I chose to click it that one afternoon months ago. Before then I was just pickled to see my work up and getting downloaded, then I saw how folks to speak others and was blown the heck away! And realized that maybe people aren't so nice and friendly around here!

All message boards have their share of angst. If you think WC's is "not nice" perhaps you should check out dA's for instance. I am a regular on there as well and if you think it's a "Friendly" message board then all I can say is you haven't either been there long or looked very much. It's a rougher place. The average age there is 17 (their own stats) and conversations tend to come from that point of view.

And a little honesty wouldn't kill anyone here. Everyone who has submitted something to a website knows it is a tedious, time consuming process.  One doesn't remove their stuff on a lark. They do so because they feel very strongly about something.

You feel strongly that wallpaper artists aren't treated well. But what deeds lead you to that conclusion? Because walls are moderated?  That is the only material deed in play here.

Because you must realize how petty it would come across to other adults that you pulled your stuff because you didn't like what someone said on a message board.

You're right that I don't care about wallpapers. Not even in the slightest. There are lots of sections I don't care about.  Hence, I use the word "I". I didn't say "Stardock" doesn't care. Nor did I say "WinCustomize" doesn't care. In fact, I expressly said "I personally think that the wallpaper section is a waste of bandwidth."

There are other sections I personaly feel that way too about (Kewlpad for example).

All the evidence points to the same conclusion -- you removed your stuff because of opinions expressed on a message forum. Opinions that have nothing to do with actions.

Am I or someone else to worry that someone is going to remove their wallpapers because they say "I don't like red wallpapers" and someone who makes red wallpapers quits in a huff?

Imagine if the volunteer moderators and admins of this site took your attitude. That when they felt attacked (And unlike you, they actually have gotten truly flamed) they just up and quit. Where would the community be then?

What you don't see is that your particular drama has been acted out dozens of times over the years and many old timers have grown weary of it. There is always some newcomer (and no offense ubt you are a newcomer) who believe he or she is wiser or is a champion for some unspecified downtrodden.  Oh the woe, some 5 minute bryce wallpaper didn't get put up. So yea, eventually long timers here do get a little fed up with the dramas and have little patience for the same old complaints. Perhaps each complaint should be handled as if it's the first time but you're dealing with human nature and the same thing will happen anywhere you go on the net.

But getting back to pulling your stuff off. Look, if you're not willing to be honest about your motives then there's not much point in trying to have a conversation. Given the amount of time it takes to submit work, pulling your works is designed to keep site X from benefiting from your contributions. It is certainly your right to do so. But be honest about it.

You must confess it was incredibly tacky on your part to talk up how much better you think deviantART is than WC.

As for money and WC as an advertising vehcile, the same is true of any site. deviantART, Deskmod, Skinbase, even Customize.org and Skinz.org have sections for Stardock's stuff and all in sufficient quantities for critical mass.  It may be hard for you to believe but Stardock supports this site as part of its contribution to the community. I.e. giving something back. I realize that you probably believe that only you do altruistic things but yes, amazingly enough other people, including companies, do altruistic things at times. The only stock holder Stardock has to answer to is me and as a result it can do things that are not necessarily great business decisions but are good community decisions.